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response to friend who suggested that the self is a democracy of neural parts

This is a nice way to try to avoid being cornered re the irreality of the self if you're a reductionist, for you can assert that a pattern obtains at the microscopic level that is not all that unlike the pattern found at the societal level.  No need for the one self that does it all: instead, you have many sub-selfs that compete for dominance or take turns guiding the whole.

The problem with this is, however, that the voters/officials are all zombies.  None of them thinks about the whole as such.  And perhaps none of them thinks even about themselves (unless one is a panzoist).  None of them makes a comparison of alternatives.

The more this proposed democracy seems like a zombocracy, the more consciousness will be seem to be epiphenomenal.

Furthermore, if the oneness of the self is less real than the multiplicity of explanatory neural parts, then why can't each of these neural parts be conceived of as democracy as well?  And why not parts of these parts, etc.?

Leibnitzian monads, here we come!

The other alternative would be to say that the unity of the whole person is not merely apparent.

Comments

Eternitatis said…
Here’s my answer. The Dave Bradway Theorem states in simple man’s language: If consciousness preserves personal identity in any sense, and dreams feel as real to us as when we are awake, then the mathematical structure of consciousness at the highest level precludes us from knowing another consciousness. This is because the group that preserves personal identity is a normal subgroup. Normal subgroups are generally intransitive. (If A>B, and B>C, then it is NOT true that A>C. So The conscious-identity-of-C is a conscious subset of B, and the conscious-identity-of-B is a conscious subset of A, then it does not follow that the conscious-identity-of-C is a conscious subset of A.) While you are alive and conscious, you cannot know another consciousness, you cannot know what it is like to be a bat, and in fact, your consciousness could harbor subconscious entities (aware of themselves as you are) without your being aware of them. This view also is completely compatible with supervenience. So the self could well be a progressively complex oligarchy of conscious entities (but no more than 4) of progressively increasing complexity where each is self-aware, but unaware of the others higher in the chain. So a person with one personal sense of identity could be a composite of at most 4 sub-conscious entities each of which are self-aware but mutually unaware of the others. Furthermore, such a 4-oligarchy construction could be multiply realizable physically. The 4-oligarchy person could be living in the Matrix. I can provide a rigorous proof of this if requested.
Leo White said…
I think you are trying to be clear, but not succeeding.

Let's take this sentence, for example:

"(If A>B, and B>C, then it is NOT true that A>C. So The conscious-identity-of-C is a conscious subset of B, and the conscious-identity-of-B is a conscious subset of A, then it does not follow that the conscious-identity-of-C is a conscious subset of A.)"

It starts off clearly enough, but gets unintelligible to me starting with the second sentence. I encourage you, my friend, to write more clearly. Great ideas can be said without seeming incoherent to those without an couple of degrees in science.
Eternitatis said…
Actually, I got something backwards on my post. OK, the dynamics of consciousness obeys the algebra of a normal subgroup. But in group theory, normal groups are generally "intransitive" as I point out. If A>B and B>C, then A is NOT >C. This inability to "nest" normal subgroups is why you cannot know the consciousness of others, much less sub-conscious entities lurking about in your brain. The limit to nesting normal subgroups in a descending series also explains why there is no formula for polynomials with integer coefficients beyond the 4th degree (see Abel-Ruffini Theorem. The modern proof is because there is no nested normal subgroups beyond the order of 4). Recall the quadratic formula for 2nd degreee polynomials. Why aren't there formulas for all polynomials? My point is this: If there is a sense of self identity that is preserved in consciousness (i.e we're not Zombies), then the inability to nest normal subgroups suggests that there can be no democracy of neural parts if the said neural parts possess their own separate preserved identities (having an equal vote so to speak) as well. The counter to this argument is that the idea of a preserved identity, a little "I" that somehow survives in our consciousness is just a mass delusion. I am ambivalent as to which is correct because I'm so philosophically muddled as to doubt that "I" even exist!
Leo White said…
Much of what you wrote was not intelligible to me. But at the end you do take aim at the notion of "a little 'I' that somehow survives in our consciousness."

Straw man.

Here is a way in which mathematics can be used to address the issue of personal identity. If you understand the same mathematical equation today that you wrote as a comment to my blog yesterday, well, then there's a you who recognizes the sameness of that equation. If there were no you, then there would be no referring back to the same thing.

Evidence of personal identity is found -- not through introspection -- but through the recognition that things and abstract objects (like mathematical equations) retain their own identity and can be repeatedly cognized.
Eternitatis said…
Addressing "strawman's" comment regarding mathematics to prove we are not Zombies: The mere fact that we remember formula does not guarantee that there is a sense of personal identity because humans and zombies both are dynamic systems. They both have thought "orbits". Even some of the Romero zombies keep up repetitive behavior - e.g. banging themselves repeatedly into the same mall store glass door. The sense of "I" or preserved self-identity is abstractly like a conservation law isn't it? Identity is an invariance across all experiences. As such like conservation of energy/momentum etc., it can be described abstractly as a group. Also, since "I" survives even in dreams where the direction of data is from within the mind rather than from the external world, this "commutativity" makes it a "normal group." The representation at less abstract levels is not at issue here. I don't care what the neuro-physiological substrate is. All I know is that it must obey a certain high level abstract algebra; to wit, the dynamics of a normal subgroup. From here we can conclude that self-identity in consciousness cuts us off from knowing other consciousness or answering Nagel's question on what it is like to be a bat. If we are all zombies, then this, of course, doesn't apply.
Leo White said…
I don't think that bringing up the properties of zombies is helpful. I am not trying to prove that we are not zombies. That's a red herring. Let's stay on topic.
You can describe identity abstractly as a group, but that would be a mistake. If a group of people make different scientific observations, there is no scientific report until the observations are put in one place that can be read by one person. It's the unity of the person that makes scientific reporting possible. You are missing that.
I think you jump around quite a bit in your thought. It seems like you are having a conversation with yourself and I am watching you. Real communication takes discipline. You have to empathize with the other person. Imagine their ignorance of what you are already thinking. Try to figure out how to move them from ignorance to knowledge. Focusing on how to achieve this change in the other will help you write more clearly.

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